|
"This is not helldump, do not treat it as such" works. Or if that gives off too much of "DONT EVER LOOK AT OTHER FORUMS" vibe, "Be good to other forums users." Something simple. You can't complex a rule up in an attempt to catch every instance of hate. and this: "Where to draw that line between funny and cruel will be a job for the fyad mod and any admin overseeing things, but I don't think that is as difficult a task as folks have made it out to be." Will be the difference maker. You are not going to be able to type the perfect line into the rules that is a "GOTCHA" for every person trying to be a shit. The people who mod it and watch it will be the ones who monitor that and the difference between "Look at this guy who just fired someone 2 days before Christmas because of snow" and "Haha, this guy is a [slur] screw those people!"
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:05 |
|
|
The DIY bathroom guy is worth discussing in more detail because I was there when it happened, but I wasn't a mod at the time, but I can talk about how I would deal with that sort of thread if one came up again. Yes, a lot of the response to it was mean spirited, and he's a punchline across DIY to this day, but he was being dunked on for his terrible opinions about women, money, and digging a well if the well happens to be your upstairs bathroom's engineered floor joists. There was a moderate amount of mocking his taste in decor but that comes with the territory and was kinda secondary. The DIY folks can swing from supportive to fucking brutal in a second once they smell blood and resistance. However. They started digging through his post history, though at least it was for relevant stuff. They started proto-doxxing him. They started digging up more tangential stuff from his posting history. To quote Burt Sexual at this point, "This is my first foray into DIY so you guys may be more fyad than I know". They reported him to his local code enforcement office using information dug up from linkedin. And it sort of carried on from there. I don't remember if kid sinister got a slap for that, but he should've. Point being, there's a line to cross, where on one side you have "Dude stop doubling down before you kill yourself, also your design is ugly", and on the other side you have "Sure you posted about this here, but over there I've found X, Y, and Z about you so now that's fair game too". Where each forum puts that line is going to be different, but if that thread played out in DIY the same now I'd raise an eyebrow when people went outside the thread to find other relevant DIY crimes, giving a week probation for "ooh look I found your linkedin" and a ban for either posting that info in-thread or calling the dude's local authority or whatever. If I was running FYAD I'd do the same; if you're going to dunk on someone for bad actions & opinions they need to be proximal and contemporaneous, i.e. don't go digging far away or long ago to find them, but I don't run FYAD and maybe that line sits elsewhere. Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 10:08 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:06 |
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:My intent is to call unique attention to situations where it isn't okay, not demarcate the entire space of posts. It's understandable if you don't believe this outright, but I don't think anyone in FYAD thinks that someone grieving over their pet is hilarious material to yuk about, and I think anyone who tried that would have been run out all along. Here's the problem: the whole reason we're going through all this right now is that many posters in FYAD thought it was A-OK to do exactly this. Not over grieving for pets, but over gender identity and a whole host of other really shitty things that came to light as we started digging in. The "I think women in domestic violence shelters should be raped" post keeps coming back to me when I think about this stuff. No one who did that stuff was run out by FYAD itself. Self-policing for them broke down in the worst possible ways. Right now I have very little faith in their ability to stay chill and not be shitty without some clear boundaries. I do, however think that this works: Athanatos posted:I think a simple: We don't want Helldump back, and at its worst that's exactly what FYAD was and it caused a lot of the same cross-forums problems that Helldump caused. The fact that people were afraid to go in there and post speaks volumes about it. I was never a FYAD poster. I poked my head in once ca. 2006 and thought it wasn't for me. Same with BYOB. Just not my cup of tea. But FYAD in 2019 doesn't resemble what I remember of 2006 at all. Maybe I'm a different person and it was always like that, but I think part of it might also be people looking back on FYAD a decade ago and thinking that the current iteration resembles their fond memories.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:16 |
|
|
Burt Sexual posted:I wouldn’t change their style sheet, it’s their identity, having a good mod that isn’t explicitly “part of the clan” will de silo it enough for me. If the stylesheet's staying can we at least get the flags culled?
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:16 |
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Here's the problem: the whole reason we're going through all this right now is that many posters in FYAD thought it was A-OK to do exactly this. Not over grieving for pets, but over gender identity and a whole host of other really shitty things that came to light as we started digging in. The "I think women in domestic violence shelters should be raped" post keeps coming back to me when I think about this stuff. I think, like Jeffrey said, that will be the mod/admins job. The last breakdown was a failure of the mod. If someone is there turning discussion away from too far, keeping it from that, and handing out probations if it does get to that, the boundaries will be set.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:21 |
|
|
Wait they blew up his LinkedIn? That is.....fucking disturbing actually. Like I've read the threads where FYAD mocks people, and they can be pretty harsh when they want to be, but it never ever reaches the point of posting people's social media accounts and making fun of those. Full stop. FYAD actually did ban for stuff like that already. Big Anime Fan Here is the most recent one I can remember, and he posted a picture of Spanish Manlove's sister, and was permabanned for it rightly. This line has been well-preserved by the existing fyad staff, for all of their other faults - they make fun of posts here and don't go beyond that, because they are looking for ephemeral laughter. They may still end up hurting people with cruel words, and the new rules are designed to put a lid on that, but it's incidental, never the intent of the posts. Those DIY posts are explicitly seeking to hurt and punish this guy IRL for his posting crimes, there's nothing funny about going to local code enforcement at all. This is supposed to be a discussion of fyad, but damn, I kinda think we should perma- that "teehee I found your LinkedIn" guy. That's toxic. That is worse than anything I've seen in fyad for years and I permabanned someone for posting a goon's facebook in GBS. Like it's embarrassing for the site to have that sort of post unpunished in the goldmine and I'm blindsided that it was going on unchallenged in a subforum I don't read. Like it feels absurd to, in the current crisis, praise FYAD for it's restraint, but they certainly have shown more of it than DIY if that thread is to be taken at face value.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:24 |
|
|
I would agree with the not helldump don't use it as such phrasing. Same as rule three: short and sweet and vague is best for the mod to enforce with the proper judgment, this of course presupposing it is a mod we trust (Ralp has not said yes just yet!).
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:25 |
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:If the stylesheet's staying can we at least get the flags culled? something needs to be taken away. flags or sigs or both. of course it's their identity, that's why it'll sting
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:26 |
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Wait they blew up his LinkedIn? That is.....fucking disturbing actually. Like I've read the threads where FYAD mocks people, and they can be pretty harsh when they want to be, but it never ever reaches the point of posting people's social media accounts and making fun of those. Full stop. FYAD actually did ban for stuff like that already. Big Anime Fan Here is the most recent one I can remember, and he posted a picture of Spanish Manlove's sister, and was permabanned for it rightly. This line has been well-preserved by the existing fyad staff, for all of their other faults - they make fun of posts here and don't go beyond that, because they are looking for ephemeral laughter. They may still end up hurting people with cruel words, and the new rules are designed to put a lid on that, but it's incidental, never the intent of the posts. Those DIY posts are explicitly seeking to hurt and punish this guy IRL for his posting crimes, there's nothing funny about going to local code enforcement at all. SA in general has a doxxing problem right now. A lot of it is going on in off-sites like forum specific discords. I've been vocal about it in the past with how it relates to CSPAM but there's a population of posters who think that punishing someone for shit they did online is a good thing and they are usually smart enough to do it not on the forums themselves. We had a really good TFR poster leave over threats made to his family on his youtube page referencing shit that happened in CSPAM, for example. I don't have an answer to this. If I knew who pulled that on the TFR poster I'd queue the perma myself or get one of the CSPAM mods to push that button if the malfactor wasn't a TFR poster, but there's no good way to track that shit. edit: this shit is a big part of why I tell my posters, frequently and loudly, to watch what they post online. TFR used to be a much more open place about arranging meet ups and the like. Now I get nervous whenever Secret Santa comes along. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 10:29 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:27 |
|
|
graph posted:something needs to be taken away. flags or sigs or both. of course it's their identity, that's why it'll sting FYAD has been closed for like over a week, I think the message that things must change has been felt. The stylesheet and sigs and flags are in principle one of the most innocuous and nice things about fyad in that it's harmless, fun decoration. Of course in practice some of the flags are/were terrible or even illegal so they should probably be reset to zero or at least culled, but I personally don't think the styles need to be removed. Cards on the table, I'm defensive about this because BYOB loves our stylesheet and sigs, and we would relish flags if we had them.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:33 |
|
|
graph posted:something needs to be taken away. flags or sigs or both. of course it's their identity, that's why it'll sting Yup, mte. Also I feel like there is some happy medium between vague and long af/impossible to parse. And while I think Ralp would do a good job and I think that having the mods be actually part of the mod team is a big fucking plus, but this quote:No one who did that stuff was run out by FYAD itself. Self-policing for them broke down in the worst possible ways. Right now I have very little faith in their ability to stay chill and not be shitty without some clear boundaries Is exactly right and should be screamed from the rafters right now. Handing them their old stylesheet, 3 rules (same as old but we're going to enforce them this time guys, I promise!!) is a disaster waiting to happen and sends the wrong message. Both to fyad and the trans posters they've been harassing relentlessly.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:33 |
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:SA in general has a doxxing problem right now. A lot of it is going on in off-sites like forum specific discords. I've been vocal about it in the past with how it relates to CSPAM but there's a population of posters who think that punishing someone for shit they did online is a good thing and they are usually smart enough to do it not on the forums themselves. This is kind of off-topic though. FYAD already had this line drawn and if it hadn't it would have been deleted years ago. Find me a facebook link in there (lowtax excepted) and I'll destroy them but they really have not done that. My goal here is to eliminate the bigotry in fyad, as I said up top. Sigs and flags and stylesheets do not cause bigotry and I have no interest in using this thread to also address those things. I have removed some bad flags and I'm happy to continue to do so in the future but that is not what this thread ought to be about.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:40 |
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This is supposed to be a discussion of fyad, but damn, I kinda think we should perma- that "teehee I found your LinkedIn" guy. That's toxic. That is worse than anything I've seen in fyad for years and I permabanned someone for posting a goon's facebook in GBS. Like it's embarrassing for the site to have that sort of post unpunished in the goldmine and I'm blindsided that it was going on unchallenged in a subforum I don't read. Like it feels absurd to, in the current crisis, praise FYAD for it's restraint, but they certainly have shown more of it than DIY if that thread is to be taken at face value. He did catch a ban for it later in the thread when combined with some other weird behaviour. As I say I wasn't running the show back then. He never actually doxxed him on the forums themselves, and was (is?) a pariah for having gone as far as he did. I've not seen any misbehaviour from anyone in the last year. Edit: to keep this thread relatively clear, PM me if you wanna chat it through. Or in the serious thread. Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 11:19 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:49 |
|
|
Jeffrey. Please. FYAD and KF have the exact same talking points re: me being a Puerto Rican (because I am lightskinned, you see) was never poor because I also owned a piano(!?). Like really specific fucking things. There is absolutely overlap there.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:50 |
|
|
Koalas March posted:Handing them their old stylesheet, 3 rules (same as old but we're going to enforce them this time guys, I promise!!) is a disaster waiting to happen and sends the wrong message. Both to fyad and the trans posters they've been harassing relentlessly. They're really not the same rules. Bigotry and slurs were allowed in FYAD because it ostensibly wasn't malicious. It was, so that's going away. FYAD was allowed to stalk posters because the ostensibly could maintain ironic distance. They couldn't so that's going away. FYAD was largely given special treatment when they harasses and stirred shit in other subforums because they were ostensibly the conscience of SA. They aren't, so this is going away. The FYAD mod was a largely jokey position received via contest because they ostensibly self-policed. They couldn't, so that is going away. Removing cosmetic effects from FYAD doesn't do anything to solve any problem and comes off as weirdly spiteful imo.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 11:01 |
|
|
fool of sound posted:Removing cosmetic effects from FYAD doesn't do anything to solve any problem I agree. Not sure what the endgame of that one is that the bans, probations, and complete change of their forum rules and mods doesnt accomplish
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 11:16 |
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Doxxing is something I take extremely seriously and I truly don't believe that it's something done by FYAD. The facebook I'm talking about was from the Australia thread in GBS, and I think C-Spam has a serious issue with it as well. I keenly remember the story you're referring to and it's probably the most tempted I've ever been to read someone's PMs intrusively. I don't want to cross that line and I respect the victim's wishes not to share who did it but I really would like to find and remove the perpetrator from this forum. Maybe you could email the victim again and ask if he'd share his PMs with you or an admin now that time has passed? I still keep in touch with him and it's something that he's shot down hard ever time I've mentioned it. Apparently the threats were pretty specific and he's just done with having an online presence. As he put it "bullshitting on the internet isn't worth my family or my job."
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 11:35 |
|
|
Athanatos posted:I agree. Not sure what the endgame of that one is that the bans, probations, and complete change of their forum rules and mods doesnt accomplish It send the message that the old forum is dead and gone and it integrates fyad with the rest of forums as a whole.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 11:36 |
|
|
ok but like, this thread is about reopening a new fyad, not an unrelated gray forum.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 11:54 |
|
|
Ralp posted:ok but like, this thread is about reopening a new fyad, not an unrelated gray forum. gradually change it from grey to color like the intro sequence from wizard of oz
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:07 |
|
|
There's a difference between creating rules for a forum, and creating rules for the mods/iks of a forum, and creating rules for a group of people. I think the rules in the OP are substantially fine; I would suggest adding something like "4. no mod sass" (but maybe defined a little better, "mod sass" is not super meaningful). It's covered in the universal forum rules but imho bears repeating explicitly. IK rules are another thing that some posts in this thread are touching on (regarding probations etc) and that's a good discussion but those do not belong as part of the forum rules. I'll dig up the IK rules I sent out after every contest later, as a starting point. The third thing, rules that apply to a group of people, doesn't really make sense though. I understand the idea of fyad being a specific group of sinister trolls or whatever, and the insularity of the forum means that's not entirely nonsensical, but it's uh, not what fyad is. It's a forum on the internet (as the first half of that flag goes). When we sign up for the forums we don't pick a box that says I'm a gbs poster or fyad poster. So rules about what is/isn't ok to do in other forums, don't belong in the fyad rules — they would belong in that forum.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:09 |
|
|
Koalas March posted:Jeffrey. Please. Do you have specific posts in mind? Understood if you did not catalogue these. Criticizing you unfairly does not mean that someone is from kiwifarms, that is too far of an inference for me to make. I hope it goes without saying that anyone linking your social media or anything else offsite would get the hammer and quickly. I do remember criticism of your fundraising thread which you also revised based on feedback in the mod forum, it wasn't out of nowhere. Sitewide rules against criticizing mods is something that was policy until 2013, when Aatrek was found out. That is the worst case of a policy like that - an unapologetic pedophile holding a position of authority for years. I appreciate all the hard work done by everyone here a great deal, and I have no desire to enable harassment of you folks, but being a mod is always going to involve scrutiny beyond that of a regular user. Teams of folks in charge have a way of becoming insular and protecting their own, even when they shouldn't. We both trusted Bobbie's judgement after all, no one is immune to this effect. There are plenty of examples in forums history in which criticism of mods has lead to the right outcome. Accusing you of being Puerto Rican and owning a piano is like, ludicrously stupid, but if that's the best criticism someone can muster, it also probably means you're a pretty good mod. You are welcome to disagree but I think that is a small price to pay for insurance against Aatrek 2.0. We can delineate QCS as the place to do this rather than FYAD, but obviously that place has some issues as well, and it doesn't have the barrier to entry that FYAD does. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 12:18 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:15 |
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:
I'm interested in this because it's one of the major questions I have about the endeavor of an fyad redesign: especially given the intense scrutiny it will be under, is this something that can actually work, or is it going to be designed by committee without a shared goal and subject to so many conflicting parameters that whoever agrees to mod the thing is just being unintentionally set up to expend a ton of time and effort and stress, and then fail.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:27 |
|
|
can someone fix my fucking avatar, this is what happens when you get unbanned from the panel
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:28 |
|
|
Ralp posted:The third thing, rules that apply to a group of people, doesn't really make sense though. I understand the idea of fyad being a specific group of sinister trolls or whatever, and the insularity of the forum means that's not entirely nonsensical, but it's uh, not what fyad is. It's a forum on the internet (as the first half of that flag goes). When we sign up for the forums we don't pick a box that says I'm a gbs poster or fyad poster. So rules about what is/isn't ok to do in other forums, don't belong in the fyad rules — they would belong in that forum. Yeah this is true, although I don't think I saw anyone suggest that itt. The problem before was that when they went to shitstir in other forums people were like, afraid to mess with the FYAD bully crew, or even discouraged to deal with it properly by previous admins. If we're discarding the culture of impunity then I think everyone should be able to punish in their own forum accordingly, there's no need for fyad posters to be "marked"
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:50 |
|
|
I'm heading to my second job rn, but Jeffrey if you want feel free to search my name in fyad and cross reference it with the thread in KF. I don't have the time, or frankly mental energy to catalog posts about me that are dumb and shitty at best and flat out abusive at worst. I get where you are coming from but it is such a gross insensitive thing to ask someone to whip out a binder full of receipts of racialized abuse hurled at them through the years. Anyway you got me, I'm just done with this. I'm dropping it. Just do whatever y'all want with fyad since that seems to be the plan anyway. good luck with the inevitable bullshit down the line days, weeks or years from now
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 12:52 |
|
|
I know you're a frequent target for both groups, and that's awful and I'm sorry about it, but I don't see how removing cosmetic effect from FYAD somehow discourages them from doing this if the new rules and moderation do not.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 13:02 |
|
|
Jeffrey I think you’re on target, but whatever you do. Make sure you open it on a Tuesday.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 13:09 |
|
|
I think we’re proposing rules to delineate what FYAD is not without articulating what it should be. I am ambivalent to the a e s t h e t I c s of FYAD but if you don’t think there’s a fuck ton of crossover between FYAD and KF then I have a bridge to sell you.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 13:22 |
|
|
Koalas March posted:Handing them their old stylesheet, 3 rules (same as old but we're going to enforce them this time guys, I promise!!) is a disaster waiting to happen and sends the wrong message. Both to fyad and the trans posters they've been harassing relentlessly. Koalas March posted:It send the message that the old forum is dead and gone and it integrates fyad with the rest of forums as a whole. yep. giving them back their playpen in the exact same state will be bad news i mean, i hope i'm wrong and the forums aesthetic doesn't matter at all
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 13:46 |
|
|
Based on what Jeffrey has been saying, fyad is going to be losing a lot of its unique features anyway. Beecocking posts for example is a function tied uniquely to fyad's current forumsid, and since we are making an entirely new subforum in place of the old one those functions will not carry over. I am of the opinion letting the new fyad have its pink stylesheet and crazy signatures should not be a sticking point here since we are stripping literally everything else including its name. As Ralp said we aren't looking to make a new gray forum here, we are specifically making a new pink one.
LITERALLY A BIRD fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 20:00 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 13:51 |
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I think we’re proposing rules to delineate what FYAD is not without articulating what it should be. FYAD is the mean forum, for posting gross pictures and waging flame wars.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 14:36 |
|
|
For what it's worth I could give a fuck if they have a fancy style sheet or flags or sigs or whatever (although I do thing a flamethrower needs to be taken to the current flags - let them start over on that front). The issue is the substance, not the form. D&D could be a neon fuscia splash page with hypnotically rotating bernie sanders heads and all posts in 8 degree off-kilter comic sans and it wouldn't change the substance of what people are talking about. At the same time, the FYAD trans thread could be laid out by the typsetters for the New York Times and still be a reeking cesspit.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 14:38 |
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:D&D could be a neon fuscia splash page with hypnotically rotating bernie sanders heads and all posts in 8 degree off-kilter comic sans Mods please.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 15:32 |
|
|
LITERALLY A BIRD posted:I would agree with the not helldump don't use it as such phrasing. Helldump was a gimmick forum that existed as recently as over a decade ago so I suggest that this is meaningless, or maybe worse than meaningless because even among folks who remember it or have since gleaned anything about it, it's another one of those things that everyone is going to read and think they understand while each having a completely different understanding.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 15:44 |
|
|
Ralp posted:Helldump was a gimmick forum that existed as recently as over a decade ago so I suggest that this is meaningless, or maybe worse than meaningless because even among folks who remember it or have since gleaned anything about it, it's another one of those things that everyone is going to read and think they understand while each having a completely different understanding. The problem with heldump is that the very worst of what it embodied has become a fixed reference point for forums culture, to the point that 'heldumping' as a verb is something that many posters recognize. What heldump was or wasn't is besides the point - the larger issue is that it is a symbol of goon-on-goon bullshit that led to dumb drama and drove people off the site. Call out threads, cross-forum shit stirring, mock threads, etc. are broadly banned elsewhere on the general basis of "that's helldump bullshit, it was a mistake then, and we don't need it now." Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 16:28 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 16:18 |
|
|
i really want to 6er ralp purely because i can rn but i'm aware it would be bad for this discourse. people have mostly said what i think so i'm largely staying out
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 16:30 |
|
|
I’m out of this thread and the gbs Fyad thread. Un bookmarking all concerning this.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 16:46 |
|
|
Ralp posted:Helldump was a gimmick forum that existed as recently as over a decade ago so I suggest that this is meaningless, or maybe worse than meaningless because even among folks who remember it or have since gleaned anything about it, it's another one of those things that everyone is going to read and think they understand while each having a completely different understanding. How would you word it? Something simple that shows that doxxing and deep diving into post history to dunk on people is not acceptable. Again, I dont think there is any perfect wording you are going to put into a stickied thread that locks down all discussion. It's going to be on the people who watch it to make sure it doesnt happen.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 16:58 |
|
|
Athanatos posted:How would you word it? Something simple that shows that doxxing and deep diving into post history to dunk on people is not acceptable. I'm just saying let's definitely avoid the word helldump but ok, for the former, the forum rules already posted:Harass and Sass: … Please do not post others' personal information (phone number, addresses, emails, etc.). Try to stay out of other peoples' personal lives as well.
|
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 18:35 |
|
