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New FYAD Rules posted:1. No bigotry in any form. This will not be taken lightly. You have been warned. Short and sweet, I am happy to discuss any part of it. I want to call specific attention to rule 2. It has prompted a lot of discussion. The goal of the rule as stated is to create a place where going into the trans thread and mocking posters posting about their lived experiences is 100% off limits. At the same time, I don't think we need to be so severe that we can't laugh at, say, the guy who cut through his house's I-beams to install a gaudy bathtub. I am hoping that my rule captures this distinction, but I'm open to rewording it. I think it will, in practice, be fairly simple to draw this line, but being able and willing to do so will be a key responsibility of any fyad moderator going forward. Diligent implementation of this rule has managed to turn around the "Awkward Ugly and Gross" thread, despite the inherent, errm, ugliness that such a thread carries in its subject matter. ZDR and FAU, for all their hard work, had a policy of turning a blind eye towards FYAD. Guyovich was promoted to admin rather confront the person giving him chain six hour probations. This era is over - no special treatment will be given to FYAD posters going forward. That's not to say that FYAD posters are not allowed to post elsewhere at all, as plenty of them have interests that they talk about on the forums like anyone else. However, I will absolutely not allow FYAD to be a meeting ground for group antagonism. I think it's been made clear that the pendulum has swung the other way. FYAD posters are on thin ice and they know it. I hope that posting normal stuff in your subforums and also in fyad will not be a cause for probation, but you have my full permission to give them a short leash. This is a *temporary* forum for discussion of these issues. This will go away when the issue is settled, as there will be no more siloing of fyad issues from the rest of the mod team. Ralp is here and should be able to read and post in this thread. Part of incorporating the fyad mod into the mod team means including them in mod conversations, especially ones like this one that will directly shape how they do their job. Also FYAD now stands for Farewell You Appalling Dickheads. (Credit to Ariong for that one.)
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 20:49 |
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first
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 20:57 |
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Which I graciously allowed for you to be. 
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 20:59 |
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Present
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:01 |
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I think that basically covers it. I'd just append "posting in other forums like they're fyad will get you in trouble" or something like that to rule 3.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:07 |
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0. low taxes over arching rules completely apply to this forum, please review prior to posting 1. Edit. No bigotry, ironic or otherwise, ...... 2. Question. How do they handle long face Jim? 3. Edit. Invasion encompasses one or multiple goons entering a forum and bad faith posting, and or unnecessary unfunny shitstirring Make Ralp mod
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:08 |
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Burt, what about "shitstirring" instead of or in addition to "invasions" in rule three's phrasing, without elaborating further? I think it's best to keep that one punchy and with room for us to flex it.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:10 |
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Burt, what about "shitstirring" instead of or in addition to "invasions" in rule three's phrasing, without elaborating further? I think it's best to keep that one punchy and with room for us to flex it. That’s cool, in addition to.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:17 |
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hello
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:20 |
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Hi Ralp. 
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:21 |
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Ralp posted:hello Hi! These seem good. LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Burt, what about "shitstirring" instead of or in addition to "invasions" in rule three's phrasing, without elaborating further? I think it's best to keep that one punchy and with room for us to flex it. I like this as well. Remember the mess regarding the use of “invasion” with the smooth brains in cspam and d&d? I know they’re a special type of pedantic but it’s best to be vague here, I think
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:24 |
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Request permission to post “Fyad status discussions are underway with real actual people. Please hold”. Within the open gbs Fyad thread. They need something real. Nothing more. Accepting suggestions.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:33 |
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Yeah I think letting the FYAD thread and the trans thread know We're Hard At Work Improving Their Posting Experience would be a good idea.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:34 |
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Ralp posted:hello Yo, you up for that Fyad gig? It’s kinda off the rails rn. What’s your platform sir? Lol
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:35 |
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I think sharing that we're actively buckling down on it in that single-sentence manner is a good idea, if Jeff is on board as well. I know that in the PYF circles at least people are allowing us a little slack due to the holidays and assorted RL crises but even they are alert to the lack of communication here.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 21:43 |
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Jeff is fine with it as well (new post for visibility).
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 22:18 |
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Would it be useful to make it clear to the IKs (and posters) that chain probating people in FYAD for posting elsewhere is going to cost them ten bucks and their buttons? That's a thing that I know keeps some people from posting in FYAD in order to avoid having a post for that shit to be targeted at, after seeing the whole Guyovitch saga. Don't want to step on the comedy sixers, because they're often pretty good, but it's a thing that's been abused in the past.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 22:56 |
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Liquid Communism posted:Would it be useful to make it clear to the IKs (and posters) that chain probating people in FYAD for posting elsewhere is going to cost them ten bucks and their buttons? They chained me for like days, as a mod. It was fucked up agaimst the rules, FAU finally stepped in I made this earlier, chains (no mods) can only go 24 or whatever hours. Not weeks
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 23:24 |
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Burt Sexual posted:They chained me for like days, as a mod. It was fucked up agaimst the rules, FAU finally stepped in My thoughts exactly. 24-48 hours is funny, any longer than that and it gets annoying for nearly all parties involved. Make it absolutely clear if they abuse the buttons, the buttons are going away and it might even cost them  or more.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 23:32 |
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nine-gear crow posted:My thoughts exactly. 24-48 hours is funny, any longer than that and it gets annoying for nearly all parties involved. Make it absolutely clear if they abuse the buttons, the buttons are going away and it might even cost them I am more inclined to keep things discretionary than prescribe any hard and fast rules for chain sixers in general. There is a point where it's obnoxious but I'm more a fan of "ask them to stop" than "this costs you , no exceptions". I do honestly believe that having a fyad mod who participates in the mod forum will alleviate the issue somewhat. It's not like Hogge Wilde or Moridin were bad calls, and clearer communication between us and whoever wanted to stop them from posting might well have saved us all some trouble.
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| # ? Dec 19, 2019 23:43 |
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In particular for rule 2, I think at least for the first little while (days, maybe weeks?) that the new version of the forum is open you'll have people trying their best to see exactly how far they can possibly stretch this and get away with it. Not saying it's a bad rule, just that the mod (which it looks like will be Ralp) is going to be getting tested pretty hard and it's probably gonna be a rough time for them. I'm not really sure what if any solutions there are to that, just pointing out that there's always gonna be people trying to rules-lawyer their way into being allowed to be assholes, and maybe a catch-all "the mod has complete discretion to penalize bad posting as they see fit" comment isn't a bad idea? Or is that already implied by Burt's suggestion of Rule 0?
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 00:33 |
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Are they still going to be choosing IKs through that random number thing, or will they be picked through the normal channels?
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 00:51 |
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I think a complete lack of tolerance for bullshit should be made implicit in the rules and subsequently made apparent by making examples of the first few people to try it, personally.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 00:51 |
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Fedule posted:I think a complete lack of tolerance for bullshit should be made implicit in the rules and subsequently made apparent by making examples of the first few people to try it, personally. Agreed
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 03:55 |
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Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at Dec 23, 2019 around 10:16 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 05:27 |
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I think the biggest thing is you can not be mocked or attacked for your posts in the other forums. It's effectively helldumping at that point. The mentality of "you can go after whomever you choose, even if they aren't here" was part of problem. Hell, it's what lead to this whole thing in the first place. To address Jaded Burnout's #3 above, it's why I said in the other thread: "no probing people who aren't actively participating in FYAD." General Anime sort of started it (with a script no less), but what would happen is an IK would find a post in FYAD made by a forum enemy, no matter how old, and chain probe over their entire time as IK. Half the time, it would be for posts that are months, if not years, old. iospace fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 07:36 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 07:31 |
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Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at Dec 23, 2019 around 10:16 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 07:59 |
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I think JB's breakdown is helpful. FYAD did a lot of what was basically helldumping and I think that's toxic as hell. Digging up old posts or cross-forum posts for mockery hurts the forums as a whole. Mocking people in FYAD for what they're currently posting in FYAD should probably be fair game, even if it's not my cup of tea.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 08:13 |
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People who rule lawyer to try and get away with doing dumb bullshit are super annoying. If it helps, add to the rules that it won't be tolerated. You don't have to let someome get away with being shitty if they didn't technically run afoul of section 8 paragraph 2 line 40-42 of the rules.LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Which I graciously allowed for you to be. haha, thank you!
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 08:42 |
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i dig it is there a contingency plan if it all falls apart again? moving forward on the reboot, will there be a sort of punishment like removing the stylesheet/banner to push the notion of un-siloing ?
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 08:53 |
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Imo there should be room for making fun of goons and threads when they're doing something actually worthy of mockery, like that rediculous Old Spice bathroom from DIY. It's think the line should be 'make fun of stuff happening right now, don't stalk the subjects of mockery in hopes of finding more material'.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 08:58 |
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OK, going to drop a bunch of posts I made in the other thread then get caught up in here:
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:10 |
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Hey. So here are the long awaited proposed rules for fyad. The core goals here are to eliminate bigotry from fyad, put a lid on the forums-wide antagonism that has provoked much ire over the past years, and ensure that, going forward, whoever runs fyad will be a participating member of the mod team. This will be a challenge but it's one that I am prepared to undertake. We will be starting over with a fresh, empty forum and implementing the following rules, in addition to those stated in the existing forum rules. I think #2 somewhat covers it but I do think that we need to be more explicit about not shitting on other sub forums for “content.” It’s self destructive and hurts the forum as a whole. It got to the point in TFR where I made a rule against it there because it was petty and drove other posters away. I like how simple the rules are but that one might need two sentences to nuance. Gimme a sec and I’ll do find the specific rule from TFR to give an example.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:10 |
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Here’s the TFR rule. Again I’m a wordy academic so no need to make yours too long, just an example of my thinking: quote:
My big concerns is that the FYAD mock threads start back up. Even if it’s a “make fun of posters actions not posters” thing that can turn ugly, fast. There’s obviously nuance and room for discretion if another Grover house happens but do we really need FYAD making fun of e/n posters for being bad at relationships or the next Zaurg etc? I think in most of the obvious cases of someone being an idiot the subs themselves tend to make fun of the idiot.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:11 |
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alnilam posted:I agree with this. It's a tricky line to draw though. It might just take some subjectivity. The reason I think it should be made explicit in the new FYAD rules is that it's historically been one of the biggest problems with FYAD. I mean, fuck, it's basically the reason we're all doing this right now. The anti-trans shit was gross and awful, but it was part of a larger pattern of FYAD cruising the other subs looking for "content." I think the angle to approach this is to make it clear that mock threads about other SA posters or forums isn't OK, but that there is a window there where it's become an ~epic something awful event~ (Zaurg, Grover house) and therefore fair game. I would say that the rule of thumb needs to be if they're getting mocked inside the affected sub, then it's fine. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Dec 20, 2019 around 09:15 |
| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:11 |
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Ok, so I'm still thinking this through, so bear with me. Here is the rule as proposed: 2. Make fun of what people do, not who they are. If you cannot tell the difference between these things, don't post. A big part of the problem is that, online, a lot of what people are is what they do. We aren't meeting each other in public and forming shitty opinions based on how we look, we're talking to each other online and forming shitty opinions based on what we decide to talk about. I'm a shit ton more than just a guy who target shoots but on SA I'm the gun mod. KM is a lot more than just a person who doesn't like online racism and posts funny gifs, but on SA she's the Black Mod (capital B, capital M). etc. Let's take Pet Island as an example. A lot of people there have very intense relationships with their pets. Do we want FYAD searching through there and finding posters who are using their animals as a way of coping and mocking them because of that, in typically cruel FYAD fashion? To pick an example close to home, look at Literally A Bird (edit: sorry if this hits close to home Bird, but I think it's an example we can talk about given that we're all friends here and we all care about you). I wouldn't want to see her as the focus of some FYAD circle jerk because of how important her bird is to her. But, according to that rule as it stands, that's OK because they're making fun of what she does (loves a bird) rather than who she is. PI is the most obvious example and probably has more potential for outright cruelty ("lol look at that idiot grieving over a dog, it's just an animal, buy another one"), but you can do this for just about all of the hobby subforums. Make a mock thread for the sweaty D&D nerds in trad games. Make a mock thread for the idiots spending too much money on pimping their civic in AI. Make a mock thread for the political partisan knife fights in CSPAM. Make a mock thread for the gun nuts in TFR. All of these are things people do rather than things people are, but having a forum pointing and laughing at the shit the other people in the forums do still isn't healthy for the SAF as a whole.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:11 |
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I was working last night so apologies, but I think the rules look good, however I do agree with Cyrano.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:20 |
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fool of sound posted:Imo there should be room for making fun of goons and threads when they're doing something actually worthy of mockery, like that rediculous Old Spice bathroom from DIY. It's think the line should be 'make fun of stuff happening right now, don't stalk the subjects of mockery in hopes of finding more material'. Ehh I'm not sure that's a great idea because it's hard to quantify and easy to rules lawyer. In the fragility thread posters are allowed to make fun of racist posts or fragility meltdowns but that's a very specific metric that's easy to identify. If that makes sense anyway
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:25 |
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fool of sound posted:Imo there should be room for making fun of goons and threads when they're doing something actually worthy of mockery, like that rediculous Old Spice bathroom from DIY. It's think the line should be 'make fun of stuff happening right now, don't stalk the subjects of mockery in hopes of finding more material'. Like, I understand your hypothetical situation here Cyrano, and I just don't think rules as stated need to cover it explicitly. My intent with writing new rules is to preserve spaces on this forum where folks can share their own vulnerabilities without fear of being mocked, like the trans thread, not to address all of the cases where someone should or shouldn't be made fun of. It's the difference between "this is a specifically vulnerable person sharing something personal" and, well, regular posts. My intent is to call unique attention to situations where it isn't okay, not demarcate the entire space of posts. It's understandable if you don't believe this outright, but I don't think anyone in FYAD thinks that someone grieving over their pet is hilarious material to yuk about, and I think anyone who tried that would have been run out all along. This is something I can only show you with action, taken in the future, not words in the mod forum, but I hope to be given the chance to demonstrate it as such. I do think Lucy, personally, went too far. I have gotten FYAD posters PMing to thank me for banning her, for this very reason. Open communication between the folks who run fyad and the folks here is something I believe will genuinely help that sort of situation. Rules lawyering has never ever been a problem on something awful. Every generation of mod has known to ignore it and we've been collectively doing so for years. I do think it is a reason why broad principles are better than long lists of specific rules, but it's not something we as a staff are vulnerable to.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 09:46 |
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I wouldn’t change their style sheet, it’s their identity, having a good mod that isn’t explicitly “part of the clan” will de silo it enough for me.
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| # ? Dec 20, 2019 10:02 |
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